Saturday, November 21, 2009

The fate of American freedom hangs in the balance

I certainly hope you have already contacted your senators?

God help us now.

Spencer

18 comments:

Courtney said...

I called more than just my senator.......

I am afraid that this is the end of an era in this great country. The very freedoms our fore-fathers fought and died for are being stolen from us this very day. And, in reality, they haven't been stolen from us at all - Americans have given up their freedoms, bit by bit.

I've done everything I can possibly do to fight this....the only thing left now is to pray. Pray, pray, pray. We need to storm the very gates of Heaven itself for our country.

God help us.
~Courtney

The Warrior said...

Good for you, Courtney, for your hard work. I have been unable to convince many (any?) to do much of anything "political" the past year, so my hat is off to you.

Pray we shall.

Spencer

olde.fashioned said...

Good luck getting any of the CA "left-wing loons" (as Ann Coulter so charmingly calls them) to listen.

God help us indeed. Sometimes it's hard to remember that He's in control and could quite possibly will this to happen. I really really hope that's not the case, but if it is...I suppose we'll just have to say "Thy will be done" and try to combat all this evil on as many levels as we can.

Sigh.

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Johann Van De Leeuw said...

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fuzzys dad said...

I have called and email. But here in Indiana we have a RINO Lugar and a Dippycrap Bayh

duva said...

What freedom exactly? The freedom for the richer to refuse to help out people who are dying because they can't afford health care...?

The Warrior said...

Thank you all for your excellent comments! Keep up the good work, all.

Duva: I think we have discussed this already. I have provided you with some information, and have linked countless sites and articles that explain the situation well. I am living in America now and I can see it from the inside.

It is simply not as you say.

Spencer

olde.fashioned said...

Duva, a big part of what freedom is is the ability to make a choice as to your own actions, whether or not they are "right" or "wrong" as viewed by certain groups. If you have an imposed standard of morality (i.e., forcing the rich to support the poor, instead of encouraging the poor to help themselves and thus become independent, instead of reliant on the goodwill of others and especially government programs...), then not only have you diminished the nature of that freedom, you have also sown seeds for resentment amongst the classes. Why should belonging to a certain tax bracket mean that you no longer are free to spend your money as you choose?

Simply put, it isn't about what people choose to do with their freedoms. There will always, always be abuses of our rights, but that doesn't mean they should be taken away.

duva said...

Spencer: Sorry about that, I'm just pulling your leg a bit. Thinking if I say it enough times, maybe you'll understand my point one day :P

olde.fashioned: Yea, I know about your so-called American Dream. How do the poor help themselves and become independent? How exactly does it work? In the US 42% of those born with the lowest incomes remain there for the rest of their lives. In Sweden where we have public health care, free education and all the horrors of socialism you can imagine, the same figure is 26% (just 6 higher than if chance had been in control in other words).

I simply can't see how freedom can be the freedom for those who were lucky enough to be born in circumstances where you can have a lot of money to use said money as you wish, while at the same time others who weren't as lucky have to suffer because of it. Wouldn't freedom rather be to not have to worry about your health, however much or little money you have?

The Warrior said...

duva: Okay, apology accepted. :-)

OTOH, I'm not sure about those figures but either way I'm afraid you are looking at one aspect of an immense issue. American freedom is not merely about a tax bracket (btw, who defines that anyway?). This is much, much more than just a question of wealthy vs. poor.

Anyway you look at it, stealing from those who made their own fortunes, or even were bequeathed them, is wrong.

And might I again bring up the issue that the health care bill's references to firearms is enough on its own to warrant avoidance?

Spencer

olde.fashioned said...

Duva: If it's "our so-called American Dream" (since you're obviously being sarcastic here), then why do so many citizens of third-world and even non-third-world nations want to move here for a better life?

It says life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness [emphasis mine obviously]. You have to chase it.

Let me ask you something. What exactly do you mean by your definition of "freedom"? Does it entail the expectation and entitlement of the "gift" of pre-established standards of wealth, health care, quality of life, etc.? Is a poor person with the same rights as a rich person any less free because of their smaller bank account?

Wouldn't freedom rather be to not have to worry about your health, however much or little money you have?

Not at all, IMO. Freedom is exactly what I have been describing to you in my previous comments -- and while I will be the first to admit that having enough money for health care et al would be a very nice thing indeed, I for one most certainly do not count having to rely on notoriously unreliable government-run programs as "freedom". If anyone thinks that having the US government run our health care system is going to improve anything, well, then...I can only say think of your delightful trips to the DMV, multiply that times ten, and throw in the added stress and emotional roller-coaster of having your health, nay, your very life (as in the case of emergencies) depend on the stellar performance of a similarly run and similarly functioning agency.

duva said...

"Anyway you look at it, stealing from those who made their own fortunes, or even were bequeathed them, is wrong."

Well, now you sound like Robert Nozick... To make a long story (that wouldn't convice you anyway ;) ) short, I'll simply say that I have a hard time seeing taxes as stealing. And as for making your own fortune, someone who can't afford basic services such as health care will be hard-pressed to achieve that; with an accident or unexpected illness all savings might be gone, and maybe you're indebted for life, just because you couldn't afford that insurance...

As for the firearms, you know I'd think the world a better place without them anyway... ;) (then again the sort of back-handed way of trying to get to them through this law seems fishy though so I'll give you that point!) And with that said I think I'll try to end this discussion once and for all since this is never getting any of us anywhere but to irritation. Ciao.

duva said...

olde.fashioned:

"then why do so many citizens of third-world and even non-third-world nations want to move here for a better life?"

They don't only move to the US I tell you. Did you know that one of the suburbs of Stockholm has received more Iraqi immigrants than the whole of the US?

Then again I have never said that US would be some hell on earth, of course people move there from poorer countries. It's just that I do know a fair bit about how things work there, and I do know even more about how things work here and I think our model is better. It's all about good will, dear you. How much have you studied how people feel and society actually works outside your country?

"Is a poor person with the same rights as a rich person any less free because of their smaller bank account?"

YES, if having a smaller bank account means you can't access basic services like health care, education, libraries etc. "Pursuing happiness" is quite hard to do if all you can do is fighting to stay alive and keeping your family together. And again, the movement between classes is much bigger in countries such as Sweden, Norway or Canada than it is in the US for example. It's a simple fact. If the state guarantees you a standard of living, it's much easier to "pursue your happines".

"I for one most certainly do not count having to rely on notoriously unreliable government-run programs as "freedom"."

Again, I don't understand your fear of the government. We have schools and health care run by the state (actually the health care is run by "regions" and school by the municipalities but it's public anyway, and regulated by the state) and it all works good, much better than most of the private alternatives that are out there anyhow I might add. What strikes me is the fact that it's always those who haven't bothered to look at life in our countries that seem to fear what it is like.

The Warrior said...

Okay. Time to play moderator.

First off, let's all be adults and not get hurt feelings when I say I want this kept civil. I'm horribly exhausted at the time being, so take that into account.

Duva, you know you are always welcome to comment, so please don't take this the wrong way. I doubt you meant it but your last comment could appear to some as a little bit akin to fight-picking. You know discussion is more than welcome, I just wanted to step in here (and it IS my sister we're talking about here).

Please continue the conversation if you wish everyone, but keep it civil.

Spencer

duva said...

Well, I don't see any "fight-picking" from my angle, actually I even called your sister "dear you" ;) If I came across as less than civil I am sorry and duly apologize but I guarantee you it was completely unintentional. But all is in the eye of the beholder I guess...

olde.fashioned said...

I am going to politely decline to discuss this any further with you, Duva, without any ill will, and hopefully you will understand. Firstly, I think there isn't really any point in either of us going on as the other is never going to agree, and secondly, I know Spencer doesn't need even the slightest semblance of "drama" at present. So we'll just have to agree to disagree! :-)