Sunday, May 31, 2009

World War III has started

15 comments:

Son3 said...

I think North Korea just tried to launch their death-dealing missile into the U.S. airspace, but it fell off the launchpad before it could liftoff.

Darn it, and that was their last one!

I think it'd be funny if they launched a sky-writing missile over the pacific that said,

"1)How do you divide seventeen apples among sixteen people?

2)What goes up white, and comes down yellow and white?"


(Batman joke.)

LOL!

Chairman Mo said...

There is a very big difference between North Korea and Iran. In the event of Iran massively stepping up its nuclear programme, invasion is certainly feasible as a last resort and sanctions will have greater effect. North Korea is effectively immune from attack thanks to the size of its armed forces. Furthermore, the comparison is inaccurate because North Korea is highly unlikely to act aggressively towards the South or Japan without serious provocation. Kim Jong Il may be 'crazy', but he isn't stupid. Neither is Ahmadinejad, but he has at least declared a clear aim against Israel. Kim Jong Il has so far made no equivalent statement. His disregard for the armistice agreement is most likely little more than a further assertion of power. America cannot touch him now, and he has for the moment effectively secured his nation from external interference.

olde.fashioned said...

Son3: Eggs and applesauce for everyone! LOL, I just love Google. ;-P

Seriously, though, I can't help wish we had a war-hardened leader at the moment...

Lizzy Brown said...

Interesting article (obviously quite serious). I know everything it said is true, but I'm still unsure of what the real implications of all of the developments will be... I see the comparison between Iran and North Korea- they are both insane, obviously. I guess our future rests in God's hands. It just seems like someone should do something about all of these crackpots with power-hungry ambitions... I'm sure there are plenty of padded rooms available, since most of the insane are running around in our political buildings back east.

Ipwergis-Pudding said...

Those were some annoying banner ads.

duva said...

Uhm... I find the concept of countries such as North Korea and Iran to co-operate extremely unlikely, and how on earth could nuclear weaponry in North Korea be a threat to Israel anyway? That article seemed to me like the confused rantings of a dooms-day prophet at best, or propaganda from the weapons-industries at worst...

Oh, and I'm also of the opinion that if Russia and the US never themselves start getting rid of their insane amounts of nuclear weapons, they have no authority what-so-ever in telling others to not getting their own.

Chairman Mo said...

Oooh duva you make good points. North Korea maintains nuclear weapons to safeguard itself. Labelling both it and Iran as 'insane' doesn't really do anyone any favours. If like the USA, Iran and North Korea were capable of global power-projection, then I very much doubt they would be considered insane. North Korea does not, I feel, have 'power-hungry ambitions' (Lizzy Brown) beyond its borders, simply because its expansion is unfeasible. The USA has nothing but power-hungry ambition. The only difference is that it is, for the moment, still capable of acheiving most of it. Iran and North Korea are what you create by being a superpower obsessed with enforcing your own ideas on radically different cultures.

Chairman Mo said...

Ooooh DrPaleo, incidentally, may I link to your page from my blog (not that anyone ever reads my ramblings...)? Though I should warn you that generally I disagree with you about everything :P

Lizzy Brown said...

Chairman Mo: I, obviously, cannot agree with you. While the USA may be power-hungry, comparatively to Iran and North Korea, who both boast radical and merciless methods of domination against their enemies (who seem to be, oh, just about everyone including their own people), the USA is the ‘lesser of three evils’. Have you forgotten history? North Korea invaded South and if the USA had not stepped in, South would still be subservient to the North (and subject to the cruelty and inhuman treatments of a totalitarian dictatorship)--- USA may not be all its cracked up to be, and may have some enemies; but Iran, who openly swanks the ability and intention of wiping Israel off the map, is doubly insane- and to insane, I will add Evil. Completely so… For, anyone who would support the means of war such as ‘child jihad’ and ‘Shahada’ to conquer their enemies, is clearly insane, evil and ruthless. I will simply hold to the word ‘insane’ because, even the Spartans and Romans knew that ‘children’ were the key to an empire’s survival and accomplishment- Iran and other Muslim ‘empires’ so readily throw their children’s lives (and their future) to hell. Literally. North Korea will most likely only be Iran’s means of nuclear achievement- but do they really think that those that turn on their own people will not (sooner or later) turn on their allies as well?

duva said...

Lizzy: I'd say you see a lot more than there is to see. Yes, Iran is a really unpleasant place, yes, Ahmadinejad is a racist and pretty much a fundamentalist (and for the record, the truth of his quotes on wiping out Israel or denying the holocaust are disputed), but you make it seem like the country's some kind of chaotic hell on the verge of spewing out hordes of child soldiers and weapons of mass destruction to wipe out the rest of the region. Instead of painting up some kind of image of horror, why not try to understand what's going on there as well as hoping for Mir-Hossein Mousavi in the upcoming presidential election?

As for North Korea I would say most experts agree on the fact that what they do, they do because of the US in one way or another. They are obsessed with the US and they are (with or without reason) frightened. Getting nuclear weapons is for them a defence against the US, as well as a guarantee of staying important. I don't call their acting logical, but that's the way it is, and yes, I'd agree with you in referring to the North Korean ledership as insane.

As for Iranian ties, you might also want to consider the history of Iran and its revolution. The revolution was brought about by islamists and leftists, the islamists came to power and the left was forced to flee. Except the rare few royalists who still hang around Farah Diba and her eldest son most Iranian dissidents are communists or socialists so I don't quite see an alliance with the so-called communist country of North Korea happening, on top of that you also have the North Korean isolationism and all that...

Chairman Mo said...

The Korean peninsula was divided as a result of a Soviet-US agreement. The Korean War was ultimately caused by Cold War hostility between Russia and the USA. Minor powers react to the actions of major powers, and neither North Korea nor Iran is a major power.

Ahmejinedad is what you get when a state such as Israel, without close cultural ties to the rest of the region, is supported by the most powerful country on earth. He may be extreme, and he may be wrong, but he is not insane. He is not Hitler (or Kim Hong Il for that matter).

'Iran' and 'North Korea' are countries, not people, and as entire nations I really don't think they can be considered insane. Whilst I in no way condone the North Korean regime or Ahmejinedad's intentions towards Israel, it must be remembered that Iran and North Korea are not Western nations and shouldn't be expected to behave like them. Democracy and individualism are not universals. In order for the USA to get anywhere in the long run it has to understand that Western civilization is but one of many civilizations, and that it's values may work perfectly in a Western context but cannot be assumed to be appropriate to other cultures with their own history and traditions.

Back to the original point, I expect that Iranian nuclear technology would be better facilitated through Pakistan and China than North Korea. Oh and I don't really see how Iran could feasibly turn againts North Korea.

Not that I expect to convince you :P

olde.fashioned said...

Butting in here.

As for North Korea I would say most experts agree on the fact that what they do, they do because of the US in one way or another. They are obsessed with the US and they are (with or without reason) frightened.

I always find it interesting how the rogue nations invariably manage to blame the US for the wrong things that they do. Since we're "The Great Satan" I guess the devil made them do it...

neither North Korea nor Iran is a major power.

Thank God!

I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose to live in either countries, excepting missionairies, aid workers, et al. Not that it's very safe for them, either...

Ahmejinedad is what you get when a state such as Israel, without close cultural ties to the rest of the region, is supported by the most powerful country on earth.

Wait, how is this Israel's fault? And am I just nuts, or was Israel in the region since Biblical times? Hmmm... If they don't have a "good reason" to be there then I don't know who does...and since when does a nation have to be "culturally close" to their neighbors in order to "belong" in the region?

Iran and North Korea are not Western nations and shouldn't be expected to behave like them.

So is it unreasonable to expect them to allow their people basic and fundamental freedoms, or are humanitarian atrocities to be tolerated in non-Western nations simply because it's their culture/way of life/whatever?

Dr. Paleo Ph.D. said...

I must state that I agree with Lizzy and Olde.

North Korea does not, I feel, have 'power-hungry ambitions'

I would disagree; what about the Korean War?

Iran and North Korea are what you create by being a superpower obsessed with enforcing your own ideas on radically different cultures.

In order for the USA to get anywhere in the long run it has to understand that Western civilization is but one of many civilizations, and that it's values may work perfectly in a Western context but cannot be assumed to be appropriate to other cultures with their own history and traditions.

And basic rights and freedoms should not be encouraged/defended? Concentration camps and prisons. Hmm, not just cultural differences, I would wager.

As for North Korea I would say most experts agree on the fact that what they do, they do because of the US in one way or another.

The Korean peninsula was divided as a result of a Soviet-US agreement.

Indeed, a very unhappy result of the power struggle at the end, and after, WWII. No one is perfect, certainly no country, but poor work done in the past does not invalidate all proper efforts today.

Well, bad guys just generally hate good guys. :-)


My own mind also continually falls back on history here. The Muslim world hates us because we are largely "Christian", it's just history. North Korea was backed by China dn the USSR in the Korean War. Given China's own nature, as well as Russia's (particularly in light of the recent attack on Georgia), I seriously doubt a war with North Korea would stay between just US and NK. Iran, so on and so forth.

Let's keep this friendly and civil, please.

Spencer

P.S. Chairman Mo, I am pleased that you asked permission. You may link to anyone you want without asking, this is the free internet! Anyhow, how can I say no? :-)

duva said...

"I always find it interesting how the rogue nations invariably manage to blame the US for the wrong things that they do."

I never said North Korea makes sense. It's a relic of another age, and as Spencer pointed out a sad consequence of struggles after WWII. The fact still stands though, North Koreas is obsessed with the US, and I would say the threat (that they perceive) is the main reason for its existence more or less, at least when it comes to the administration. Again, not defending it. North Koreas is a sick country.

"I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose to live in either countries, excepting missionairies, aid workers, et al. Not that it's very safe for them, either..."

You're right in the sense of North Korea, but as for Iran you also have to remember that a lot of perfectly normal humans lead more or less normal lives there too. Human rights aren't what they should be, the priesthood have far too much power, but it is a stable country and not being outright oppositional you can live pretty much normally there. It's not a place I'd choose to live in, but it's not hell. I think you seem to forget the Iranians are humans as well.

"Wait, how is this Israel's fault? And am I just nuts, or was Israel in the region since Biblical times?"

As far as I know there's not been a Jewish nation in that region since around 500 BC when the Babylonians took it. Going by that logic there are a LOT of countries of today that'd need redrawing their borders ;)

Then again, Israel is there now and that is a reality that has to be accepted. However, Israel's claims of being a Jewish and Sionistic state doesn't belong in a modern democratic world. The day that all are equal even in Israel I'll applaude its existence.

I agree that Chairman Mo goes too far when blaming the Iranian situation on the existence of Israel though.

"So is it unreasonable to expect them to allow their people basic and fundamental freedoms, or are humanitarian atrocities to be tolerated in non-Western nations simply because it's their culture/way of life/whatever?"

I agree with you 100% here. I've always found the argument that human rights should be something for Westerners only very strange (often comes up here in discussions regarding China) - especially considering the fact that the very first declaration of human rights actually was written in Iran ;)

And last but not least to Spencer regarding this:

"The Muslim world hates us because we are largely "Christian", it's just history."

There is no single Muslim world, and I can assure you that far from all Muslims hate you, those doing the hating are a minority..

Chairman Mo said...

olde.fashioned: I did not say that Israel doesn't 'belong' in the region. Israel, of course, has a legitimate historical claim to its land. I simply believe that because Israel is so culturally different from the rest of the Middle East, this is bound to create tensions, especially as a nation perceived as separate from the predominate local culture is supported by an extremely powerful nation from outside the region, with an even more dissimilar culture (where I use 'culture' I include religion). It is not Israel's 'fault', either. The whole issue has far too many causes to pin the blame on any one nation. Though I think that the issue is best seen and could be best dealt with if people looked at it as an objective situation rather than a situation in which certain parties are to blame.

Dr Paleo: The Korean War was a response to artificial national division. Whilst ultimately both the North and South desire reunification, I do not believe that either wishes to expand beyond the original Korean borders.
I highly doubt that in the unlikely event of a war between North Korea and the US, China or Russia would side with North Korea. Russia could conceivably involve itself in an Iranian conflict I suppose, and China could indirectly (e.g. through exporting weapons). China would not engage in open warfare with the USA except over Taiwan. China today is not the China of Mao. They would be against an invasion owing to their foreign policy of non-interference, but conflict between China and the USA is not in the interest of anyone in any case.

Oh, and thank you for your permission :)

Regarding cultural differences, I simply feel that it is not the place of any one culture or nation to actively involve itself in criticism of another nation or culture's practices. This changes if the targeted nation/culture is actively engaged in hostile activity against a third. Human rights and democracy are Western concepts. I do not believe that it is the place of the West to preach these principles to anybody else. If it is right for non-Western nations to have democracy and human rights, then they, like the West, will be able to get there by themselves. It must be remembered that ideas of individual freedom vary across societies, and that many cultures emphasise the society as a whole over the rights of individuals. I know that I won't convince you of this, because I do not believe that such a thing as a universal morality exists (I think that it is society-dependent), and I know that you do. Oh well, it's a fun discussion :D